InterceptRadio.com Forums :: View topic - Shuffled Band Plan

If Iunderstand things, these two statements hold true.
1. There are no scanners that allow one to input a custom band plan.
2. If one could input a custom band plan, it would require some work on the side of the user to assemble or create the band plan. Likely some type of monitoring software along with trial and error.

Any input would be appreciated.

1. - Not true. Any current scanner capable of being programmed for a re-banded 800 MHz trunked system should allow for a custom band plan.
- Chris

The shuffled band plan is a bit different than rebanding, in that will involve programming more than just one new base, step and offset.

You will have to basically come up with a new base channel for each voice frequency, and program them in the proper order. It will take some monitoring the system and associate the system channel number with what frequency, but it should be able to be done.

That information is usually in a standard format on most 800 MHz trunked systems. The tables for these channel numbers vs frequencies are hard coded in scanners. The shuffled band plan simply uses these 800 MHz channel numbers with different frequencies, thus making a scanner not able to follow trunked radio traffic.

- Chris

1. So how does one get the base upper/lower frequency, polarity, spacing and whatnot? Possibly from one of the many people who monitor the truck systems in the area?

2. And is it reasonable to think that there may be more than one band plan programmed or used at any given time on a system? I'm comparing this to a current system today that may switch control channels.

"SERS will be using Shuffled Band Plan after the rebanding effort, we start reprogramming subscriber equipment in the next 60 days starting with Everett and SCSO with the infrastructure reprogramming likely starting end of next year."
It's become clear that the SERS radio system will be utilizing to a shuffled band plan after the reband has been implemented. I did some nosing around and have a general understanding as to what this means.

Not quite.. When SERS rebands their agencies radios, they are going to enable the radios for a shuffled band plan option. As far as I understand it, they have no plans to enable the zone controller to be a shuffled. I guess they would like that option if they ever choose to in the future...

Author:	Rodentkj [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
"SERS will be using Shuffled Band Plan after the rebanding effort, we start reprogramming subscriber equipment in the next 60 days starting with Everett and SCSO with the infrastructure reprogramming likely starting end of next year." It's become clear that the SERS radio system will be utilizing to a shuffled band plan after the reband has been implemented. I did some nosing around and have a general understanding as to what this means. If Iunderstand things, these two statements hold true. 1. There are no scanners that allow one to input a custom band plan. 2. If one could input a custom band plan, it would require some work on the side of the user to assemble or create the band plan. Likely some type of monitoring software along with trial and error. Any input would be appreciated.

Author:	cparris2 [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
Rodentkj wrote: If Iunderstand things, these two statements hold true. 1. There are no scanners that allow one to input a custom band plan. 2. If one could input a custom band plan, it would require some work on the side of the user to assemble or create the band plan. Likely some type of monitoring software along with trial and error. Any input would be appreciated. 1. - Not true. Any current scanner capable of being programmed for a re-banded 800 MHz trunked system should allow for a custom band plan. 2 - Sort of true. One could probably decipher the shuffled band plan fairly quickly by monitoring the system control channel with one of several trunking analysis programs. - Chris

Author:	Rodentkj [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
cparris2 wrote: 1. - Not true. Any current scanner capable of being programmed for a re-banded 800 MHz trunked system should allow for a custom band plan. - Chris Well then I am confused then. I fully understand that any current scanner model (<5 years give or take) supports the reband. But my understanding from what I read is that a shuffled band plan is a whole different ballgame.

Author:	cparris2 [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
The shuffled band plan is a bit different than rebanding, in that will involve programming more than just one new base, step and offset. You will have to basically come up with a new base channel for each voice frequency, and program them in the proper order. It will take some monitoring the system and associate the system channel number with what frequency, but it should be able to be done. That information is usually in a standard format on most 800 MHz trunked systems. The tables for these channel numbers vs frequencies are hard coded in scanners. The shuffled band plan simply uses these 800 MHz channel numbers with different frequencies, thus making a scanner not able to follow trunked radio traffic. - Chris

Author:	Rodentkj [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
cparris2 wrote: The shuffled band plan is a bit different than rebanding, in that will involve programming more than just one new base, step and offset. You will have to basically come up with a new base channel for each voice frequency, and program them in the proper order. It will take some monitoring the system and associate the system channel number with what frequency, but it should be able to be done. That information is usually in a standard format on most 800 MHz trunked systems. The tables for these channel numbers vs frequencies are hard coded in scanners. The shuffled band plan simply uses these 800 MHz channel numbers with different frequencies, thus making a scanner not able to follow trunked radio traffic. - Chris Right. That's the basics of what I understand so far. So to go back to your earlier comment. What current scanners allow custom band plans? I own mostly Uniden portables. BC246T, BC346XT etc..

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Author:	cparris2 [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
With the most current firmware version, these scanners support custom band plans for rebanded 800 MHz trunked systems. That should also allow you to handle a shuffled band plan: UNIDEN BC246T BC296D BC346XT BC796D BC898T BCD396T BCD396XT BCD996T BCD996XT BCT15 BCT15X BCT8 BR330T GRE PSR-300 PSR-310 PSR-400 PSR-410 PSR-500 PSR-600 PSR-700 PSR-800 Pro-106 Pro-107 Pro-160 Pro-162 Pro-163 Pro-164 Pro-18 Pro-197 Pro-2096 Pro-92 Pro-96 Disclaimer: I have not yet personally programmed a system using the shuffled band plan, so I haven't had any first hand experience doing it. But in theory, this should be able to be done. - Chris

Author:	Rodentkj [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
Ya ok I'm getting my arms around this a bit more now. I found this video showing how to setup the custom band plan on a Uniden mobile. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uOpunoZDdo Regarding the information that he is inputting for his particular system in the above video. 1. So how does one get the base upper/lower frequency, polarity, spacing and whatnot? Possibly from one of the many people who monitor the truck systems in the area? 2. And is it reasonable to think that there may be more than one band plan programmed or used at any given time on a system? I'm comparing this to a current system today that may switch control channels. Thanks Daron

Author:	cparris2 [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
Rodentkj wrote: 1. So how does one get the base upper/lower frequency, polarity, spacing and whatnot? Possibly from one of the many people who monitor the truck systems in the area? 2. And is it reasonable to think that there may be more than one band plan programmed or used at any given time on a system? I'm comparing this to a current system today that may switch control channels. 1. - The information is derived from calculations based on what system channel number is active for what voice channel is used. In the case the rebanded 800 MHz trunked systems, there is a standard table that will allow the "new" channels 45 MHz to be received. In other systems, such as UHF or VHF Motorola trunked systems, require custom tables, again, based on system channel numbers and what frequencies are used. The basic information can be obtained by using Trunker, Unitrunker, or other control channel analysis programs. There are formulas for figuring out these things, but I don't have them handy right now. Others have done a lot of work figuring out these things. 2. - In a rebanded 800 MHz trunked system, you may have to have custom tables, one to cover the normal 800 MHz channels and a table to cover the rebanded 800 MHz channels. But those should cover all the frequencies used and shouldn't need any more. In the case of the shuffled system, you will most likely need a table for each voice channel in the system. So if you have a trunked site with 10 channels, you will probably need a table with 10 entries. This may be an issue in some radios if you only can enter 6, 8 or 10 entries in a custom table and the shuffled trunked site carries 12 or more voice channels. We'll have to deal with that when it comes up, I guess... - Chris

Author:	Atomic Taco [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
Also, keep in mind that most (all?) of the rebandable Moto radios can store more than one frequency table, and the controller can announce at any time that it's switching. It's possible that a new table could become active every few hours, days, or weeks and they could rotate through a half dozen of them or more. And with OTAP (Over-The-Air (re)Programming) you can send out new plans on the fly. But with thousands of radios affiliating daily, it's not likely that the entire system will switch to a never before seen bandplan.

Author:	cparris2 [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
I didn't think that Motorola offered OTAP capabilities on the Type II SmartZone systems, (which SERS is). I do know it does on the P-25 systems... - Chris

Author:	dste [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
I have a BCD-396T. My understanding is that I will just read out the radio into FreeScan and change the system type to 800 Custom, change to the rebanded band plan and set the offsets to - (minus) polarity. When the program is uploaded to the scanner it will scan. This is per the previous experience with Grundy County IL. Only Unidens can do the - (minus) polarity. The GREs were brute forced to translate the channels on Grundy but they only had 6 to deal with. We will have more than that around here.

Author:	Rodentkj [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
Yup. In overload and confused mode now.... :?

Author:	dste [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
Well, that is my plan. Now just hurry up and wait for rebanding to actually happen.

Author:	luminoxs [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
Rodentkj wrote: "SERS will be using Shuffled Band Plan after the rebanding effort, we start reprogramming subscriber equipment in the next 60 days starting with Everett and SCSO with the infrastructure reprogramming likely starting end of next year." It's become clear that the SERS radio system will be utilizing to a shuffled band plan after the reband has been implemented. I did some nosing around and have a general understanding as to what this means. Not quite.. When SERS rebands their agencies radios, they are going to enable the radios for a shuffled band plan option. As far as I understand it, they have no plans to enable the zone controller to be a shuffled. I guess they would like that option if they ever choose to in the future...

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Author:	Rodentkj [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shuffled Band Plan - What does this really mean?
luminoxs wrote: Not quite.. When SERS rebands their agencies radios, they are going to enable the radios for a shuffled band plan option. As far as I understand it, they have no plans to enable the zone controller to be a shuffled. I guess they would like that option if they ever choose to in the future... That quote was provided by one of the SERS technicians. So I tent to believe it's true. With that said, I hope you are right.